Ten games in*

[Dane Pound]

The last three championship teams all at least one Juco starter. Some of them had two.

DJ Evans, Gary Johnson and Jacob Iati all transferred in also (Iati as a walk-on.) We wouldn't have started that string of championships without those guys.

I also don't see rating guys as a binary choice. Some guys played roles. Foster wasn't a star but he had a role. Ditto for Costa Anderson.

Transfers and Jucos are part of the game. Just look at the football roster this year. Alex James, Juwan Green, Donte Mount and a bunch of other transfers.

[UA'08]

For the 14-15 freshman class only 1/5 came back. Right there says a lot.

Mike Wells

Max Twyman

Wheeler Baker

Germey McKay

Greg Stire

 

[BestDaneSinceHamlet]

9 minutes ago, UA'08 said:

For the 14-15 freshman class only 1/5 came back. Right there says a lot.

Mike Wells

Max Twyman

Wheeler Baker

Germey McKay

Greg Stire

 

So the problem is both retention AND development? 

[UA'08]

9 minutes ago, BestDaneSinceHamlet said:

So the problem is both retention AND development? 

There’s definitely a problem, but it’s not my problem lol. WB’s the one that’s got one more year left on the contract.

[BestDaneSinceHamlet]

7 minutes ago, UA'08 said:

There’s definitely a problem, but it’s not my problem lol. WB’s the one that’s got one more year left on the contract.

That's an interesting development.  He's being paid a lot by mid-major standards (350k or so).  Wonder what's going on internally considering the success chasm that's opened up in recent years.

For the record, even though you are all sick of my broken record, is that my frustration with the program is the lack of excitement these middling years brings, plus the general sluggish style of basketball that Will Brown employs (which I think is out of step with the current style).   I want excitement in the stands when I tune in on ESPN+ from faraway Los Angeles. Instead all I see is apathy.  Winning brings excitement, winning fills stands..and I don't just mean winning championships. I mean people know that when they show up there's a good chance of a win regardless of opponent and that they'll be entertained  Look at lacrosse and how many butts were in the seats during the Connor FIelds years...  People will come, but you have to win consistently and put an exciting product on the field. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by BestDaneSinceHamlet

[UA'08]

I don’t doubt his ability to get to another NCAA, but it’s not going to be as easy as putting in a bid to get the first 2 rounds on your home court. Over the years you always hear from him all that matters is 3 games in March. There needs to be an emphasis on winning the America east regular season FIRST. The goal should be that.

[BestDaneSinceHamlet]

8 minutes ago, UA'08 said:

I don’t doubt his ability to get to another NCAA, but it’s not going to be as easy as putting in a bid to get the first 2 rounds on your home court. Over the years you always hear from him all that matters is 3 games in March. There needs to be an emphasis on winning the America east regular season FIRST. The goal should be that.

That's my problem.  It's only about that..but it's NOT.  That isn't going to get people excited to go see a game..I would hazard a guess that part of Vermont's success in recruiting is that there's a lot more appeal to playing in a small but packed and rowdy gym than a half empty cavern of gray with occasional bursts of enthusiasm.

 

 

[Clickclack]

1 minute ago, BestDaneSinceHamlet said:

That's my problem.  It's only about that..but it's NOT.  That isn't going to get people excited to go see a game..I would hazard a guess that part of Vermont's success in recruiting is that there's a lot more appeal to playing in a small but packed and rowdy gym than a half empty cavern of gray with occasional bursts of enthusiasm.

 

 

You can't pin that all on him. Benson does Benson (read stupid) things. Instead of dropping the parking fees, dropping game tickets and season tickets to pack arena. The man is obsessed with bleeding the last cent from every fan left standing. 

[godanesgo99]

2 hours ago, Clickclack said:

I understand people view players differently but Peter's isn't anywhere near a plus for me. Campbell as a sophomore yes... The rest was pretty painful. Clark, Ray, Evan and Travis no question. The rest is a matter of preference...I'll even give you Campbell... 5 in 5 years? Out of 20? 

 

Problem is I find jucos and transfers can take a year or more to sync up with program. By that point 50 to 75 percent of their UA career is over.

 

I'll try do something similar for 4 year kids. Just curious. 

It depends on what you call a success. Not everyone can start. Not everyone can be a star. You start 5 players and have a roster of 13. That's 38% of the players on the team. Players that come in and earn solid rotation time and perform in their role should be considered a success. If you have a 9 man rotation with 4 players getting garbage time, that's 31% of your roster that are really only practice players.

 

[Clickclack]

15 hours ago, UA'08 said:

Going out on a limb and going to say 4 year guys may be slightly better, but only because it takes years to gain trust from WB. Interested to see the #s as well.

So here we go...4 year kids that came in as freshman and were on the roster within the last 4+ years this being the 5th year. Obviously some of these aren't set in stone as careers are still in progress. This is a quick list right off the UA site so hopefully didn't miss to many. 

- Trey Hutcheson ~ clearly right now a significant + with a long way to go

- Mitch Doherty ~ way to early to tell

- Antonio Rizzuto ~ to early to tell but trending negative for me

- Malachi DeSousa ~ to early to tell but trending positive for me

- Cameron Healy ~ clearly a positive

- Adam Lulka ~ to early to tell but neutral for me, appears to have some ability but hasn't done much yet

- Brent Hanks ~ neutral for me but recently showing some signs on the defensive end

- Nikola Jerotic ~ wasted 'ship

- David Nichols ~ for all his warts we won a ton of games with him at PG for me personally a big +

- Joe Cremo ~ same as above...big +

- Greg Stire ~ knew his role and played it extremely well, big + in my book

- Mike Rowley ~ also knew his role and was a net + IMO

- Dallas Ennema ~ excellent role player by the time he was a senior with an orating of 119. 

- Peter Hooley ~ 'nuff said

 

if you go even slightly beyond the arbitrary 5 year limit...

- Sam Rowley ~ 'nuff said

- Max Twymann ~ scrub

- Wheeler Baker ~ big time talent, can't believe his personal life derailed a promising career

- MIke Wells ~ negative

- Reece Williams ~ negative

- Geremy McKey ~ negative

- Luke Devlin ~ net + but injuries robbed him

- John Puk ~ IMO a really nice role player

 

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but it seems like success rate is far better with 4 year kids. I mean with the exception of like 3 or 4 juco kids in our history, the 4 year kids seem to be a heck of a group, some stars and lots of great role players. Perhaps it's a function of kids needing to be in the program for years to pick it up but if you know that's what's going on, why are you recruiting so many kids that will never pick it up before they leave?

 

I'm conscious of the fact that many of these 4 year kids grew on me over time, watching them improve and grow as players, a luxury the juco's don't have. The juco's however are supposed to be more mature as basketball players and yet there are very few juco's I would take over most kids on this list. 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Clickclack

[godanesgo99]

Another thing to consider in the JUCO/transfer vs. 4 year thing...

How many 4 year players did we miss because we gave a ship to a JUCO/transfer kid? I don't think it's that many. Most were recruited late to fill roster spots. If you are going to take a risk on someone to be a practice player or to take a gamble on someone with talent, why not do it with someone that will only take a roster spot for a short time, instead of taking a kid that might not work out for 4?

I do wish the team was recruiting higher and getting more 4 year players, but I also don't want them taking 4 year kids that we don't see ever finding regular player time. Let Maine take those kids. 

[olddog71]

I recall a couple years ago that Coach Brown, after a disappointing season, blamed himself for not doing enough of good recruiting. Has anything changed in that regard in the last few years? Has Brown now assumed more of a recruiting role?

[Patch]

Recruiting is especially tough when two key players leave very late (18/19 - too late to get valued players) then follow that by having one injury plagued early part of the season (19/20) and panic sets in. 

Albany was coming off I believe seven 19+ win seasons (7 post season invites) before the Post Graduate departures which appear to be good moves for Cremo and Nichols personally but tough for UA. Both were lightly recruited and developed nicely enough at UA to become interesting to P5 programs.

Should we be upset about losing games? Sure!

Anytime you're not winning you should be upset.

We are 6 and 7 with Lulka out most of the time, Anderson and Shafer out the entire season (so far), Rizzuto and DeSousa have been banged up and Trey Hutchinson is playing with torn ligaments in a finger on his left hand I believe. (Trey as a trues freshman has been asked to play the 4 at times after a preseason where he spent most of the time trying to learn the 2/3 position.

Lets see if this team can get healthy and turn the year around.

 

[Eli]

Patch, always the voice of reason.

[UA'08]

2 hours ago, Patch said:

Albany was coming off I believe seven 19+ win seasons (7 post season invites)

 

*3 real post season invites. Can we please stop counting those C list games. Based on UA’s record in those shows how much they actually care. 

Injuries suck, but every team deals with it, and the good ones fight through it and work around it. 

The Cremo/Nichols departure definitely hurt record wise for the following season, but they already knew before hand that they were going to have at least 4 scholarships open. DeSousa and Rizzuto had already signed early, which meant they had at least 2 scholarships to work with before the school year even started. 

I think the recruiting and development problem is all a trickle down effect from the 15-16 recruiting class where only 1 player stayed from the 6. Obviously no one knows the exact reasons for departures, but no matter the reason it hurt the program.