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jimbo

Let’s get political....or not

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This came across my Twitter timeline written by a mixed race individual and retweeted by an athiest Sam Harris. Interesting read and perspective...not from the right.

https://areomagazine.com/2020/07/29/the-pivotal-irony-of-american-racism/

And now square this with BLM desire to replace and displace and marginalize the importance of a nuclear family. By the way...Soviet Union was much in the same way...kids were programmed to turn in their own family if someone didn't kneel at the alter of socialism. The state became more important than the individual. Instead of the state being by the people for the people...the people were expendible meat bags in the larger cog of government. Rights and priveladges were trampled with impunity under the guise of the state knows better. You can see it here already...an honest debate of differing opinions is impossible. Cancel culture burns everyone and everything in its wake. Word are violence even if they are simple an expression or debate of inconsequential positions. This is what BLM is...and what they seek to impose beyond the cath phrase of Black Lives Matter...of course black lives matter.

This great republic is in trouble...an existential threat of socialism under the mask of BLM will destroy it if people will let it. Of this I am certain...decouple socialism from race issues and see how the country embraces social justice. But it can't be done...don't kid yourself, BLM has higher priorities then social justice.

 

 

Edited by Clickclack
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15 hours ago, Eli said:

Doesn't matter when all I hear is 'white privilege this, white privilege that' in conversations, MSM, etc. I agree with your post, but to many people, being white is now somehow their 'fault'. Trying telling those people who are being made to feel that way by the BLM organization and/or MSM that there is a 'too' in there somewhere.

I absolutely don't think that anyone actually in the movement is strictly trying to make anyone feel bad about being white. There's an argument that could be made that learning about the various forms of privilege might cause you to feel angry ("Wait a minute, this is BS and that hasn't been my experience. I've had to scrap my way through life and haven't been given any advantages") or, yes, it might make you feel bad (experiencing "white guilt", etc) or any other handful of valid emotions. The idea of learning about privilege is so you can then unlearn unconscious behaviors.

Have you ever seen this "White Privelege Checklist", Eli? It is pretty dated in some ways (the idea of going to a music store to buy music 😄), but when I first saw it years ago, it really helped clarify the idea in my head. Privilege isn't necessarily a guarantee of success in life, just like lacking privilege isn't a guarantee of failure.

Picture you got dropped into a city where you didn't speak the language and told to go to a specific location. In one version, you have a smartphone. The next, you have a flip phone. The last one, you don't have any phone. In all three you might be able to manage to get where you were asked, but the one with the smartphone you'll have a lot of advantages. No one is asking to smartphone you feel like garbage because the no phone you exists in a multiverse where you don't have a phone, just to be like "Huh, that me doesn't have a phone. I thought we all had phones or at least the opportunity to get one." It is then up to you to make the leap to "Maybe we as a society owe it to one another to ensure that everyone has a phone."

13 hours ago, jimbo said:

The inherent problem here is that the organization, Black Lives Matter, has highjacked a phrase with great meaning and there seems to be a binary where you must state “black lives matter” or you are a racist, when it truly should be “all lives matter.”

We all agree that everyone's life matters. There are a few issues with saying that "All Lives Matter". The first is that we all agree on the sentiment, but in reality society clearly doesn't value all lives. We have 400 years of history showing that our country views the lives of BIPOC, and especially Black people, as being worth less than the lives of white people (see: holding people as slaves, the failure of Reconstruction, Jim Crow, redlining, the War on Drugs, school-to-prison pipeline). Second, responding with "All Lives Matter" largely distracts from the issue at hand - the overpolicing of Black communities and the violence that comes along with that. Would you ever respond to someone trying to cure breast cancer with "well, actually all cancer is bad"?

The reason that specifically stating "Black lives matter" is important is because while that statement should be implicit in our common belief that all lives matter, there's a mountain of evidence that our society treats them as if they don't.

14 hours ago, jimbo said:

because it would not relate to a leftist group of radicals who want to defund police, eliminate the nuclear family and follow socialism.

I'm going to take this and respond to it at face value, even if I disagree with the assertion that BLM is a radical leftist group. I won't address the stuff about dissolving the nuclear family (the carceral state has done more to destroy the nuclear family than Marx ever could) and following socialism

Police shouldn't be doling out extrajudicial justice or brutalizing people and when they do they should be held responsible and face the repercussions. Currently, they too often do not. Breonna Taylor's killers are still out there.

On a much smaller local level, have you been following the story in the TU about the officer from Cohoes who was drunk, fired shots at Black youth, lied to the cops about it, wasn't charged or arrested and now gets to retire in good standing? The Cohoes police chief is saying the best way to handle it is to not discipline him and just let him retire. That's absurd. Everything about it from top to bottom is evidence that something is wrong with the system. Dude initially skirted the civil service system and got hired because of nepotism, was arrested 2 years ago for a DWI, now this, and he still gets to retire without a blemish? Things like that shouldn't happen, but they do ALL THE TIME. The police system, especially due to the political influence police unions and the FOP have, acts to insulate bad actors from actually experiencing consequences of the actions. Something has to change because it isn't just Cohoes PD with bad cops being protected - it is all over the country.

I'm going to assume that you are fiscally conservative based on your reaction to "following socialism". Right now, I'm taking a look at the city budgets for Albany, Saratoga, Schenectady, and Troy. In 2020, Albany is spending $54 million on police, Saratoga (minus the Commissioner of Public Saftey's Office at $.5 mil) nearly $20 million with contracted services, Schenectady $20 million, and Troy $30 million. These police budgets are BLOATED. To give you an idea of the proportions here, the next highest item on the city budgets is firefighting and that's typically around half of what is being spent on policing.

Imagine what could be done to improve the lives of people in our communities if even some of Albany's $54 million police budget were shifted to housing the homeless, mental health services, drug treatment services, veteran services, waste collection (trash fees would probably stop dead in their tracks), improving our parks, providing grants to small businesses, neighborhood cleanup and restoration projects.

Just because we've been taught to think, and foisted these jobs on them, that police should be the ones investigating robberies, solving domestic situations, dealing with people having mental health crises, and pulling over speeders doesn't mean that they are actually the best people to be doing all of those diverse tasks. There's a better way than currently exists and maybe it takes a lot of reimagining and might come with growing pains, but just because it is work doesn't mean it isn't worth doing

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31 minutes ago, blorp said:

I absolutely don't think that anyone actually in the movement is strictly trying to make anyone feel bad about being white. There's an argument that could be made that learning about the various forms of privilege might cause you to feel angry ("Wait a minute, this is BS and that hasn't been my experience. I've had to scrap my way through life and haven't been given any advantages") or, yes, it might make you feel bad (experiencing "white guilt", etc) or any other handful of valid emotions. The idea of learning about privilege is so you can then unlearn unconscious behaviors.

Have you ever seen this "White Privelege Checklist", Eli? It is pretty dated in some ways (the idea of going to a music store to buy music 😄), but when I first saw it years ago, it really helped clarify the idea in my head. Privilege isn't necessarily a guarantee of success in life, just like lacking privilege isn't a guarantee of failure.

Picture you got dropped into a city where you didn't speak the language and told to go to a specific location. In one version, you have a smartphone. The next, you have a flip phone. The last one, you don't have any phone. In all three you might be able to manage to get where you were asked, but the one with the smartphone you'll have a lot of advantages. No one is asking to smartphone you feel like garbage because the no phone you exists in a multiverse where you don't have a phone, just to be like "Huh, that me doesn't have a phone. I thought we all had phones or at least the opportunity to get one." It is then up to you to make the leap to "Maybe we as a society owe it to one another to ensure that everyone has a phone."

We all agree that everyone's life matters. There are a few issues with saying that "All Lives Matter". The first is that we all agree on the sentiment, but in reality society clearly doesn't value all lives. We have 400 years of history showing that our country views the lives of BIPOC, and especially Black people, as being worth less than the lives of white people (see: holding people as slaves, the failure of Reconstruction, Jim Crow, redlining, the War on Drugs, school-to-prison pipeline). Second, responding with "All Lives Matter" largely distracts from the issue at hand - the overpolicing of Black communities and the violence that comes along with that. Would you ever respond to someone trying to cure breast cancer with "well, actually all cancer is bad"?

The reason that specifically stating "Black lives matter" is important is because while that statement should be implicit in our common belief that all lives matter, there's a mountain of evidence that our society treats them as if they don't.

I'm going to take this and respond to it at face value, even if I disagree with the assertion that BLM is a radical leftist group. I won't address the stuff about dissolving the nuclear family (the carceral state has done more to destroy the nuclear family than Marx ever could) and following socialism

Police shouldn't be doling out extrajudicial justice or brutalizing people and when they do they should be held responsible and face the repercussions. Currently, they too often do not. Breonna Taylor's killers are still out there.

On a much smaller local level, have you been following the story in the TU about the officer from Cohoes who was drunk, fired shots at Black youth, lied to the cops about it, wasn't charged or arrested and now gets to retire in good standing? The Cohoes police chief is saying the best way to handle it is to not discipline him and just let him retire. That's absurd. Everything about it from top to bottom is evidence that something is wrong with the system. Dude initially skirted the civil service system and got hired because of nepotism, was arrested 2 years ago for a DWI, now this, and he still gets to retire without a blemish? Things like that shouldn't happen, but they do ALL THE TIME. The police system, especially due to the political influence police unions and the FOP have, acts to insulate bad actors from actually experiencing consequences of the actions. Something has to change because it isn't just Cohoes PD with bad cops being protected - it is all over the country.

I'm going to assume that you are fiscally conservative based on your reaction to "following socialism". Right now, I'm taking a look at the city budgets for Albany, Saratoga, Schenectady, and Troy. In 2020, Albany is spending $54 million on police, Saratoga (minus the Commissioner of Public Saftey's Office at $.5 mil) nearly $20 million with contracted services, Schenectady $20 million, and Troy $30 million. These police budgets are BLOATED. To give you an idea of the proportions here, the next highest item on the city budgets is firefighting and that's typically around half of what is being spent on policing.

Imagine what could be done to improve the lives of people in our communities if even some of Albany's $54 million police budget were shifted to housing the homeless, mental health services, drug treatment services, veteran services, waste collection (trash fees would probably stop dead in their tracks), improving our parks, providing grants to small businesses, neighborhood cleanup and restoration projects.

Just because we've been taught to think, and foisted these jobs on them, that police should be the ones investigating robberies, solving domestic situations, dealing with people having mental health crises, and pulling over speeders doesn't mean that they are actually the best people to be doing all of those diverse tasks. There's a better way than currently exists and maybe it takes a lot of reimagining and might come with growing pains, but just because it is work doesn't mean it isn't worth doing

It wouldn't do any good, but this is a fantastic distillation of the issues and should be required reading for anyone who doesn't quite grasp the issue.  That being said, I truly hope all these people who decry socialism are ok giving up their medicare, public schools, fire departments, police departments, infrastructure, child work safety laws and all the rest of it that are government funded and sponsored "betterments of society."  Socialism is the Red Scare of the 21st century, and if you know anything about history, the Red Scare wasn't a thing other than meant to instill fear of the other, 

I tried to stay out of this, I really did, but two cups of coffee and an upcoming move to Trumplandia from my West Coast enclave of progressive sin (My congressman is the wonderful attack dog Adam Schiff) has me needing to sharpen my discourse.

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2 hours ago, BestDaneSinceHamlet said:

It wouldn't do any good, but this is a fantastic distillation of the issues and should be required reading for anyone who doesn't quite grasp the issue.  That being said, I truly hope all these people who decry socialism are ok giving up their medicare, public schools, fire departments, police departments, infrastructure, child work safety laws and all the rest of it that are government funded and sponsored "betterments of society."  Socialism is the Red Scare of the 21st century, and if you know anything about history, the Red Scare wasn't a thing other than meant to instill fear of the other, 

I tried to stay out of this, I really did, but two cups of coffee and an upcoming move to Trumplandia from my West Coast enclave of progressive sin (My congressman is the wonderful attack dog Adam Schiff) has me needing to sharpen my discourse.

You should read up on the boxer rebellion and then read up on the Red Guard and  superimpose it over today...you clearly have no idea what socialism is...yes...this time unlike the other 20 times it's been tried, you'll get it right...not like Venezuela or Soviet Union or China or Cuba or Cambodia or  Congo or many others. What is being advocated by the fringe left isn't democratic socialism of Norway.

How many people does Marxist\socialist ideology have to murder...and make no mistake many time it ends up here...before people realize it doesn't work. 

 

As WSJ wrote in 2019...linked below...socialism always ends in return to capitalism (best case) or millions upon millions dead (worst case). The two most prominent socialist states in history of humanity (China and Russia) are response for the death of close to 100 MILLION people combined. But but...I'm sure BLM will implement it much better. I mean they are already on their way torching property. Again... reference red guard. Who can forget how wonderful CHAZ was until someone got shot to death. 6 people were shot in 10 days...but police BAD. LOL

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/socialism-fails-every-time-11554851786

As for social safety nets that exist like social security being a socialist construct...absolutely rediculos and again shows no understanding of what socialism as advocated by BLM founders themselves is and how it differs from social safety nets in place. Start with the widely accepted definition of socialism as espoused by Marx and Lenin and parroted by BLM. I won't quote it here but involves controlling the means of production and distribution and has serious consequences for individual liberty and innovation among other things. If you're gonna take up the mantle of socialist here, you should at least figure out what it stand for and its origins.

 

If all government action such as police and schools are currently socialist...then you need to explain why the socialist machine in Minneapolis killed George Floyd. As previously noted ..large socialist governments trample on the individual liberties almost without remorse. You're probably the guy that thinks Amazon is immoral and should be taken away from Bezos who worked and innovated for decades to build it. And when you take off the table the incentive of people to innovate and you turn into a $iena hole like Cuba or the Soviet Union where my parents had to wait on a waiting list for 6 years to buy a washing machine...then you'll know you've arrived at the utopia you pine for.

Maybe you can separate BLM from their socialist roots. I'll err on the side of caution and believe them when they tell me who they are. 

 

Scary that so many here long to be Cuba...I know you think you won't end up there...but you will. Only question is how long it will take. The ones suffering won't be the Elizabeth Warren's and Bernie Sanders of the world. It will be you and me and our children. Case in point...just a small tiny example of this. As Mr.Socialist lectures you and me about climate change...he's probably doing it from 30k feet in the sky... hypocrisy is the currency of the radical left.

Now let's queue up you telling me how you'd like to be Sweden or Canada...

Edited by Clickclack
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59 minutes ago, Clickclack said:

You should read up on the boxer rebellion and then read up on the Red Guard and  superimpose it over today...you clearly have no idea what socialism is...yes...this time unlike the other 20 times it's been tried, you'll get it right...not like Venezuela or Soviet Union or China or Cuba or Cambodia or  Congo or many others. What is being advocated by the fringe left isn't democratic socialism of Norway.

How many people does Marxist\socialist ideology have to murder...and make no mistake many time it ends up here...before people realize it doesn't work. 

 

As WSJ wrote in 2019...linked below...socialism always ends in return to capitalism (best case) or millions upon millions dead (worst case). The two most prominent socialist states in history of humanity (China and Russia) are response for the death of close to 100 MILLION people combined. But but...I'm sure BLM will implement it much better. I mean they are already on their way torching property. Again... reference red guard. Who can forget how wonderful CHAZ was until someone got shot to death. 6 people were shot in 10 days...but police BAD. LOL

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/socialism-fails-every-time-11554851786

As for social safety nets that exist like social security being a socialist construct...absolutely rediculos and again shows no understanding of what socialism as advocated by BLM founders themselves is and how it differs from social safety nets in place. Start with the widely accepted definition of socialism as espoused by Marx and Lenin and parroted by BLM. I won't quote it here but involves controlling the means of production and distribution and has serious consequences for individual liberty and innovation among other things. If you're gonna take up the mantle of socialist here, you should at least figure out what it stand for and its origins.

 

If all government action such as police and schools are currently socialist...then you need to explain why the socialist machine in Minneapolis killed George Floyd. As previously noted ..large socialist governments trample on the individual liberties almost without remorse. You're probably the guy that thinks Amazon is immoral and should be taken away from Bezos who worked and innovated for decades to build it. And when you take off the table the incentive of people to innovate and you turn into a $iena hole like Cuba or the Soviet Union where my parents had to wait on a waiting list for 6 years to buy a washing machine...then you'll know you've arrived at the utopia you pine for.

Maybe you can separate BLM from their socialist roots. I'll err on the side of caution and believe them when they tell me who they are. 

 

Scary that so many here long to be Cuba...I know you think you won't end up there...but you will. Only question is how long it will take. The ones suffering won't be the Elizabeth Warren's and Bernie Sanders of the world. It will be you and me and our children. Case in point...just a small tiny example of this. As Mr.Socialist lectures you and me about climate change...he's probably doing it from 30k feet in the sky... hypocrisy is the currency of the radical left.

Now let's queue up you telling me how you'd like to be Sweden or Canada...

Communism isn't social democracy...and social democracy isn't socialism.  and communism OR Communism isn't socialism.  You are painting with no nuance at all. 

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1 hour ago, BestDaneSinceHamlet said:

Communism isn't social democracy...and social democracy isn't socialism.  and communism OR Communism isn't socialism.  You are painting with no nuance at all. 

Yeah...tell it to the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics (USSR). But then you support BLM, as one of their founders put it...“We actually do have an ideological frame[work],” Cullors said of her organization. “We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories.” <- this here is not subject to debate nor is it ripped out of context. By their OWN admission, they are telling you what they are and what they stand for. I for one am going to believe them. So we (meaning I and you and blorp) are at an ideological impasse as to the larger issues at hand. Although I wholeheartedly agree with him/her on extrajudicial justice point he brought up specifically in the case of Floyed and Breonna Tayler.  I could even entertain and engage debate on rebalancing the police budgets. What I will never agree to is disbanding the police department entirely. 

As to your assertion that social democracy isn't socialism...this is simply hog-wash and nonsense. As Wikapedia put it...

LLiXItU.png

You may think socialism needs to be reformed, based on my life experience it needs to be buried 100 feet under ground encased in concrete. The 100 million dead cry out for it. 

As for carceral state being responsible for the destruction of the nuclear family. It's an exercise in chicken/egg circular argument. Poverty, single parent homes etc. has a huge impact on incarcerations rate etc. An entirely separate conversation. 

You should ask yourself why it is that Communist Party of USA has the hard-on that it does for BLM. All it takes it to turn off CNN and start reading. 

Many people would turn away from BLM and join the many other viable social justice movements if they only knew what the trojan horse that is BLM actually stands for. I know it's a popular refrain to pose this question but it does have some validity...black on black crime is bordering on civil war in inner cities and BLM is silent. If you have proof to the contrary, I'm willing to consider it. In fact most internet and twitter social justice warriors are mute when Chicago and Detroit report their WEEKLY murder numbers. So far in 2020 according to Chicago Tribute link here 2,249 people have been shot and yet there is radio silence. BLM would rather protest the marginal case of extrajudicial "justice" and turn a blind eye to one city having over two thousand shootings and it's only July. So spare me your righteous indignation. The reality that can't be argued away is that a black man in inner cities is FAR more likely to be murdered by a fellow black man, than a cop...silence! That's why so many people who are not part of the fake "woke" crowd roll their eyes at BLM. It's a front for everything on the socialist shopping list with the exception of true equality for minorities.

When BLM tells you clearly what they stand for, turn a blind eye to other ills that face their own supposed constituent (the black person) the only logical conclusion that follows is they don't give a &#036;iena about blacks lives. 

Again, I'm all for freedom to kneel, I'm all for peaceful protests (especially in non-epidemic times) etc. I acknowledge that racism still exists even in significantly diminished form. Again, my issue isn't with people peacefully protesting violence against minority groups. If you want to support mass riots, looting and burning of cities, that's your prerogative but don't get bent when other say, it's not right, that's not a way to achieve social justice and what are we doing here?

With that being said...I'll give you the courtesy of the last response on this. You and I have a very different worldview but in the end, this is a UA sports message board. I'll try to bite my tongue on any response unless you wish to continue the dialog. I just couldn't resist this topic when I saw it posted. I do love to debate people...not sure why I never joined the debate club in school. 

LOL

 

Edited by Clickclack
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18 hours ago, BestDaneSinceHamlet said:

Communism isn't social democracy...and social democracy isn't socialism.  and communism OR Communism isn't socialism.  You are painting with no nuance at all. 

That's what they all say. They always say it hasn't been done RIGHT or done OUR way. Put lipstick on a pig and you can still make bacon. Socialism is socialism is socialism. People like to point to Europe, to countries like Sweden or Denmark. They are CAPITALIST countries with many social programs, low regulation to promote business and VERY HIGH TAXES TO PAY FOR IT ALL. They are not socialist. It's funny how the DSA is cleaning up their web page and scrubbing out what used to be there. Don't believe them. They want to control the economy. They want to tell you what's the max you can earn. And when people disagree they will be silenced. That's how it starts. You want to have a national conversation on going to an economy like Denmark or Sweden? Fine. Do you know that these countries don't have minimum wage laws for the most part? Tell it like it is. We'll give you "free" health care, cradle to grave services and all you have to do is give us 50% of your earnings to do it. If you get a majority to disagree, give it a try.

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4 hours ago, jimbo said:

That's what they all say. They always say it hasn't been done RIGHT or done OUR way. Put lipstick on a pig and you can still make bacon. Socialism is socialism is socialism. People like to point to Europe, to countries like Sweden or Denmark. They are CAPITALIST countries with many social programs, low regulation to promote business and VERY HIGH TAXES TO PAY FOR IT ALL. They are not socialist. It's funny how the DSA is cleaning up their web page and scrubbing out what used to be there. Don't believe them. They want to control the economy. They want to tell you what's the max you can earn. And when people disagree they will be silenced. That's how it starts. You want to have a national conversation on going to an economy like Denmark or Sweden? Fine. Do you know that these countries don't have minimum wage laws for the most part? Tell it like it is. We'll give you "free" health care, cradle to grave services and all you have to do is give us 50% of your earnings to do it. If you get a majority to disagree, give it a try.

Go look at the polling done in the country of those who want Medicare for all...support drops like a gigantic boulder when you tell them your taxes will go up. It's a fact...polling is there. Everyone wants everything until they realize someone is gonna have to pay for it.

 

Tax rate is Sweden is 57.20%...Denmark you say...55.9%...socialism they want...lol.

Imagine you have a nice 100k\year job...great...well just take 56k right off the top. Enjoy your 44k.

But blabber blabber baller...something something something...socialism...drool.

Edited by Clickclack

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I am a man created in God's image, just like any other human, and we all deserve a certain amount of dignity, but we as a human race screwed up very early on. I don't think we have improved much. Twentieth century history demonstrates that. Just like everyone like you, I recoiled at the image of George Floyd unable to breathe and see him deprived of dignity and life.

I have seen examples of police misconduct, so I am not blind to the problem, but the scrutiny under which they now have to function is unwarranted. Every time a policeman shoots an unarmed black man, he will automatically be deemed guilty by many people -- regardless of the circumstances, but let an unarmed white person be killed bay a policeman it will basically be ignored, which leads me to believe that the media play an outsized role in the turmoil going on today. As I intimated above, we humans all make mistakes, but policemen are not allowed to make any. They must justify 100% of their actions. In a recent year 8 unarmed (but mostly of them suspicious) black men were killed by policemen, regardless of race. In the same year 11 unarmed (but most of them suspicious) white men were killed by policemen, regardless of race. That's 19 people out of a total population of 330,000,000. If you accept the proposition that humans make mistakes, that's a pretty small number. I don't believe that more police training would substantially reduce that number. Would I like to be one of those 19 victims? No, but that's beside the point.

I worked as a teacher for over 3 decades in a NYS public school. Most of the time I liked my job and my employer, but there were sometimes tough periods where teachers would be dissatisfied with various working conditions or compensation. We teachers conducted job actions. I was NEVER allowed to protest during the time I was supposed to be working for my employer nor on their property. So in that light I have to disagree with kneeling during game times or on their property. If I am going to a sports event for which I have paid a lot of money, then I don't want to see their display. I also feel pity for players that feel pressure from their more activist teammates to do the same, and, believe me, there is a lot of pressure today. If you as an activist want to really impress me, then do it on your own time outside the sports site. Then you will show me that you are really willing to demonstrate your passion for your cause with some self-sacrifice. 

I sympathize with those here on the Board who have suffered under socialism/communism. Only you can really understand how oppressed it feels to operate under such a system, especially if you have the spirit of freedom and independence in your bones. I understand the need for government and shared services that they provide, but I become very wary when I see government becoming too active. When it is trying to force me how to think on various issues, then it has gone too far. I think of the story of Chinese peasants living under the emperors. When the government came to town, it wasn't thinking of some wonderful thing it was going to do for your life. It was looking for your money and your sons.

Thanks for reading through this garble, and I appreciate different thought.

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That “56%” is the MARGINAL tax rate. Swedish State income tax is 20% on taxable (not gross) income above about $50,000. The rest is municipal, church, and burial taxes. For comparison just the Federal US marginal rate in the 1950s was 70%.
And despite their high taxes the Scandinavian peoples usually are found to have much higher happiness/life satisfaction levels than the US

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On 7/31/2020 at 7:58 PM, UAalum72 said:

That “56%” is the MARGINAL tax rate. Swedish State income tax is 20% on taxable (not gross) income above about $50,000. The rest is municipal, church, and burial taxes. For comparison just the Federal US marginal rate in the 1950s was 70%.
And despite their high taxes the Scandinavian peoples usually are found to have much higher happiness/life satisfaction levels than the US

How is a tax rate from 70 years ago relevant to the events of today? As for Sweden, the better measure is percentage of GDP going to taxes. Sweden is the second highest taxes country in the world after Denmark. Anyone earning over 32k will pay between 49-60% in taxes when all of the taxes they pay are combine. Many there are VERY happy to do it as they have a lot of trust in their government and tax services, which we do not have here. What works for them doesn't mean it will work here. Mind you, I'm not opposed to helping those that need it. I'm not opposed to even expending social services, what I am opposed to are able-bodied people living off social services as a career. But that's a different conversation. 

Sweden as a country is far more geographically constraints, with a more homogenous and much smaller population then USA. They have 10 million people in the entire country, smaller population size of metro NYC. 

What you say is true about higher happiness, that much is undeniable, they routinely top surveys. USA is just a much different and larger beast with many more competing priorities. Sweden is very happy to be tucked away into the corner of the globe and live a peaceful/quiet life. For better or worse, we aren't like that. That comes with it's own advantages and disadvantages. 

Edited by Clickclack

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We can't even manage taxes at a state level (how many years has NY been able to balance the budget without cutting something important like education? Zero?) and people want it to get worse (via expanding government funding for everything and anything and government micromanagement aka 'live off the government teet') and expect it to be managed at a national level? Come on. How many 'studies' has Cuomo paid for that resulted in nonsense? Didn't he do one about converting that one exit ramp in downtown by the river into yet another park? Any Joe Shmoe citizen could have told him it was a stupid idea but instead he spents hundreds of thousands on a committee if I recall correctly. The ratio of people leaving NY to those moving in is like 4:1. There is a reason why the running joke is that Cuomo is UHauls top salesman year after year. We pay through the nose here in NY and what do we have to show for it? Crumbling infrastructure, etc. That's what. Every year they fix the same roads. Why not pay for it to be done once and have that road for 10 years instead of paying the lowest bidder who half-asses it just to pay that same idiot again the following summer?

This topic is moving onto something else but I think the consensus of this group is that we can all agree that we all need to treat individual people we encounter, regardless of color, with respect based on their individual merits and interactions with us. 95% of us don't need to be told to do it by our TV's or by people marching or 'protesting' because we're adults and were raised with respect as a value.

Edited by Eli
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These European utopias may be less idyllic when you poke around a bit more. I believe Denmark is one of the happiest countries in the world by some measures, but it is also at the top when it comes to alcoholism and depression....so that doesn't seem to compute. An article I read spoke of how people are not allowed in polite company to say anything that might be interpreted as you or your family did something exceptional. Like saying your kid made an honor roll could bring a conversation to a screeching halt. Kind of strange. But aren't we all? 

I tend to treat people as they treat me, regardless of their race, ethnic background, religion, sexual orientation or whatever. If you're an A-Hole you'll be treated as such and if you're nice to me, I'll be nice to you. I support the police, but have no tolerance for those that abuse their position. I've never had a bad run in with one and have always found cooperation and respect get you a long way. 

 

I started this thread to add a little pop to a boring sports time.....it worked in a  way...we cleared some air, made each other think and shared ideas without cursing or name calling. The way it should be. 

 

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4 hours ago, jimbo said:

I've never had a bad run in with one and have always found cooperation and respect get you a long way. 

*waits for the 'that's white privilege' post inevitability*

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On 8/2/2020 at 6:06 PM, Eli said:

*waits for the 'that's white privilege' post inevitability*

Nothing yet? 

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