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#16 godanesgo99

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 10:51 AM

There are also certain lawsuits pending (I don't think UA is part of any of them) over the ability to use competitive dance and cheer teams towards title IX compliance. It comes down to what is considered "competitive sports" and how many competitions are entered vs. just sideline cheering. 

 

Some interesting reads on the topic if you google it. 


Edited by godanesgo99, 18 September 2017 - 10:57 AM.

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#17 UAalum72

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 11:41 AM

Does UA offer track and field scholarships?  

Yes, but there aren't that many compared to the roster size.

 

From the story...How can this be done? I'm assuming there are roster size limits on all D1 sports, no? We are talking about 97 roster spots here. 

Men's lacrosse has 44 on the roster, women 28. 35 baseball players, 25 softball. 28 men on the soccer team, 21 women. Football can give up to 63 scholarship equivalencies to as many as 85 players, but has 99 listed including redshirts. Golf, field hockey, and volleyball have pretty small rosters.

 

Whether it's because the games are played differently (size of pitching staffs, e.g.), or because women are less willing to walk on and go through practice knowing they may never get much playing time, I don't know.



#18 jalidanefan

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 03:16 PM

 

Does UA offer track and field scholarships?  

Yes, but there aren't that many compared to the roster size.

 

From the story...How can this be done? I'm assuming there are roster size limits on all D1 sports, no? We are talking about 97 roster spots here. 

Men's lacrosse has 44 on the roster, women 28. 35 baseball players, 25 softball. 28 men on the soccer team, 21 women. Football can give up to 63 scholarship equivalencies to as many as 85 players, but has 99 listed including redshirts. Golf, field hockey, and volleyball have pretty small rosters.

 

Whether it's because the games are played differently (size of pitching staffs, e.g.), or because women are less willing to walk on and go through practice knowing they may never get much playing time, I don't know.

 

I recruited for T&F, both M&W, and the young women are much more reluctant to continue sports after high school - there are a variety of reasons.  That being said, the obvious bogie man from the numbers above is FB.  FB is sooo expensive, so all domineering in time, energy, numbers, ... even this liberal thinks it needs to have some weird designation outside of Title IX.  Of course I think all $ sport D1 scholarships should have lifetime academic vouchers.  If a sport reaches a certain budget threshold (where it's obvious the college wants it to be a revenue sport) then it goes minor league pro, the athletes choose the "student" part while competing but can finish the student part at any time. Solves most problems



#19 dslyank

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 07:46 AM

My opinion (not fact); but I believe Bensen et all knew exactly what they were doing and the ramifications when they canceled tennis. These people are NOT idiots. What they actually did is bought themselves almost two years of evaluation and now three years to rectify. As I said in my long rant earlier, ALL mid majors have these issues and it is a constant juggling match for compliance. I (my opinion) do not look @ this event as a black eye; only another part of the battle to control costs and keep mid major athletics relevant.



#20 Dane96

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 08:35 AM

Th above is likely on the money.

 

And I will echo others who said that Title IX wasn't ever supposed to be athletics. However, I don't mind its application so long as they make the correct decision that is long over-due: exempt football from the process.   It's just never going to be an apples-to-apples comparison.  They should add dance teams and cheerleading to the application as well, not because it is a weasel way to achieve compliance but because those teams work hard and practice hard for a sporting related on-campus activity.

 

Also, i think someone else may have mentioned this...but Title IX is NOT solely about scholarship-scholarship. It's about facilities, expenditures, and access as well.  In my opinion, and this all depends on cash...once the decision is made to go all-in on the SEFCU renovation (and after both teams use the Old Gym--presumably during the re-build)...we renovate the old gym and we make that a volleyball centric facility dedicated to that team.  Also, renovate the old pool and bring back swimming and diving...which would allow more scholarship opportunities and, if its a woman only sport (meaning don't bring back men's swimming) then that facility would be dedicated to the ladies, helping reach the goal. 

 

Another easy (but more expensive way to do this) is elevating women's crew.  The expensive part is the shells which, from my understanding, can be upwards of 50-75k per boat.


Edited by Dane96, 19 September 2017 - 08:36 AM.


#21 Eli

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 09:13 AM

They should add dance teams and cheerleading to the application as well, not because it is a weasel way to achieve compliance but because those teams work hard and practice hard for a sporting related on-campus activity.

 

Agreed. That should be first step. But its not just an on-campus activity...they compete in competitions, etc. as far as I understand. It's definitely a sport, although I don't really see it's benefit during games myself (no cheer/dance has ever gotten me pumped up lol)...but they bust their butts for sure.


Edited by Eli, 19 September 2017 - 09:15 AM.

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#22 DanesRGood

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 09:45 AM

 

They should add dance teams and cheerleading to the application as well, not because it is a weasel way to achieve compliance but because those teams work hard and practice hard for a sporting related on-campus activity.

 

Agreed. That should be first step. But its not just an on-campus activity...they compete in competitions, etc. as far as I understand. It's definitely a sport, although I don't really see it's benefit during games myself (no cheer/dance has ever gotten me pumped up lol)...but they bust their butts for sure.

 

 

Did you say butts and cheer/dance?  Wha-what?  IT'S A JOKE PEOPLE RELAX!!! :)  



#23 B9j2j6s

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 10:37 AM


Another easy (but more expensive way to do this) is elevating women's crew.  The expensive part is the shells which, from my understanding, can be upwards of 50-75k per boat.

Being a former rower and swim club founder, I would love to see both come back but rowing is really costly and isn't a spectator sport. Rowing would be a million to start up with boats, trailer, oars, rowing machines, weights, coach boats, also an issue of where to store the equipment which would be interesting and scholorships. Currently the UA rowing team is unaffiliated with the University so I doubt the new athletic team would get any of their equipment.

Swimming would be cheaper and there is already built in seating area in the PE building, although not cheep just add two lanes and diving boards and your set. Although a diving platform would increase insurance costs.

#24 kikuria

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 12:09 PM

Th above is likely on the money.

 

And I will echo others who said that Title IX wasn't ever supposed to be athletics. However, I don't mind its application so long as they make the correct decision that is long over-due: exempt football from the process.   It's just never going to be an apples-to-apples comparison.  They should add dance teams and cheerleading to the application as well, not because it is a weasel way to achieve compliance but because those teams work hard and practice hard for a sporting related on-campus activity.

 

Also, i think someone else may have mentioned this...but Title IX is NOT solely about scholarship-scholarship. It's about facilities, expenditures, and access as well.  In my opinion, and this all depends on cash...once the decision is made to go all-in on the SEFCU renovation (and after both teams use the Old Gym--presumably during the re-build)...we renovate the old gym and we make that a volleyball centric facility dedicated to that team.  Also, renovate the old pool and bring back swimming and diving...which would allow more scholarship opportunities and, if its a woman only sport (meaning don't bring back men's swimming) then that facility would be dedicated to the ladies, helping reach the goal. 

 

Another easy (but more expensive way to do this) is elevating women's crew.  The expensive part is the shells which, from my understanding, can be upwards of 50-75k per boat.

 

I'm normally just an observer but this is a topic I actually know something about.

 
The issue according to the findings it about proportional opportunities. But the languate used in the resolution agreement made it clear that OCR didn't want to see UAlbany eliminating opportunities for men.
 
With that as background, the only way to meaningful resolve this is Crew.  There's no other sport that can close that gap. 100+ D1 schools figured this out long ago - if you want anything that resembles "real" D1 football, you had better plan on having Crew.
 
Other background information - I speak to this as a former rower, someone currently coaching the sport, and a former collegiate coach (different college folks.)
 
Dane96 - I understand why you cite those numbers. It's such a common misconception that it's become fact. Seriously, you could fleet out an entire program for those kinds of numbers. 
 
It's simple not true that the start up costs for Crew are as big as people let on. And ongoing costs are in line with cross country - you know, those budget killing runners are always sucking up resources.
 
When people cite cost as a barrier, they're inflating the prices because they are trying to kill the idea or otherwise don't find it appealing.  When someone thinks it's a good idea, they talk about creative ways to bring that idea to fruition.  Both have to address the financial piece but arrive at different outcomes because of different starting points.
 
Dane96 - The only programs that I know that have EVER spent that kind of $$$ for a start up program were in the Big 12 and had to have immediate offsets due to football. But even they weren't spending $50k+ on a boat.
 
If the school wanted Crew they could start it for well under under $20k. 
 
Every D1 program in our region (D2 and D3 for that matter) spread start up capital expenses over multiple years and then made incremental improvements (e.g. Buy or rent relatively inexpensive, used pieces of equipment; build roster numbers; sell said equipment and roll $$ into an upgrade;  repeat as needed and add donor $$$ as desired.)
 
Want to make sure it's a success and lower the costs even further? Work with the students and the club where those students currently row (not affiliated with university.)  
 
It's a small community so I just took the liberty of reaching out to get info from the coach that runs the program  (I didn't mention this post but probably should have in retrospect.) They had  more than 100+ women interested this season but had to limit it to 40 students because of staff size. And that's with ZERO off-campus recruiting.
 
I have to image that members of the Athletic Department read this stuff.  So let me conclude by saying:
 
UAlbany Athletic Department - You truly have a plug and play solution that would quickly solve the current Title IX issue.  If you are willing to make it work that is.  I'd even be willing to facilitate making the connection although I'm sure you can figure out how to get in contact with the right people.  Private message me if that's an option.


#25 kikuria

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 12:16 PM

Another easy (but more expensive way to do this) is elevating women's crew.  The expensive part is the shells which, from my understanding, can be upwards of 50-75k per boat.

Being a former rower and swim club founder, I would love to see both come back but rowing is really costly and isn't a spectator sport. Rowing would be a million to start up with boats, trailer, oars, rowing machines, weights, coach boats, also an issue of where to store the equipment which would be interesting and scholorships. Currently the UA rowing team is unaffiliated with the University so I doubt the new athletic team would get any of their equipment.

Swimming would be cheaper and there is already built in seating area in the PE building, although not cheep just add two lanes and diving boards and your set. Although a diving platform would increase insurance costs.

 

The key to being successful would be a willingness to work with the current team even if it's not affiliated with the University right now.  Also, Crew just isn't as costly as people make it out to be. Especially when comparing it to other sports. Let's help to stop furthering this myth!  As far as spectating goes - when was the last time you were at the Head of the Charles or the Grand Stands of a big regatta? Huge, huge spectating potential - an entire shoreline.  The  $$ come in from sponsorships rather than the gates sales of spectators.



#26 Clickclack

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 12:35 PM

 

Another easy (but more expensive way to do this) is elevating women's crew.  The expensive part is the shells which, from my understanding, can be upwards of 50-75k per boat.

Being a former rower and swim club founder, I would love to see both come back but rowing is really costly and isn't a spectator sport. Rowing would be a million to start up with boats, trailer, oars, rowing machines, weights, coach boats, also an issue of where to store the equipment which would be interesting and scholorships. Currently the UA rowing team is unaffiliated with the University so I doubt the new athletic team would get any of their equipment.

Swimming would be cheaper and there is already built in seating area in the PE building, although not cheep just add two lanes and diving boards and your set. Although a diving platform would increase insurance costs.

 

The key to being successful would be a willingness to work with the current team even if it's not affiliated with the University right now.  Also, Crew just isn't as costly as people make it out to be. Especially when comparing it to other sports. Let's help to stop furthering this myth!  As far as spectating goes - when was the last time you were at the Head of the Charles or the Grand Stands of a big regatta? Huge, huge spectating potential - an entire shoreline.  The  $$ come in from sponsorships rather than the gates sales of spectators.

 

 

Have you tried to reach out to Mark Benson on this? You clearly have passion for the subject matter at hand and apparently know what you speak of quite eloquently. There may be a real opportunity here to study this subject and perhaps bring it to fruition. I'd love for the University to find whatever funding was needed to not only resolve the Title IX matter but I'd argue more important offer a great opportunity for the young woman who would join the program. 



#27 kikuria

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 03:51 PM

 

 

Another easy (but more expensive way to do this) is elevating women's crew.  The expensive part is the shells which, from my understanding, can be upwards of 50-75k per boat.

Being a former rower and swim club founder, I would love to see both come back but rowing is really costly and isn't a spectator sport. Rowing would be a million to start up with boats, trailer, oars, rowing machines, weights, coach boats, also an issue of where to store the equipment which would be interesting and scholorships. Currently the UA rowing team is unaffiliated with the University so I doubt the new athletic team would get any of their equipment.

Swimming would be cheaper and there is already built in seating area in the PE building, although not cheep just add two lanes and diving boards and your set. Although a diving platform would increase insurance costs.

 

The key to being successful would be a willingness to work with the current team even if it's not affiliated with the University right now.  Also, Crew just isn't as costly as people make it out to be. Especially when comparing it to other sports. Let's help to stop furthering this myth!  As far as spectating goes - when was the last time you were at the Head of the Charles or the Grand Stands of a big regatta? Huge, huge spectating potential - an entire shoreline.  The  $$ come in from sponsorships rather than the gates sales of spectators.

 

 

Have you tried to reach out to Mark Benson on this? You clearly have passion for the subject matter at hand and apparently know what you speak of quite eloquently. There may be a real opportunity here to study this subject and perhaps bring it to fruition. I'd love for the University to find whatever funding was needed to not only resolve the Title IX matter but I'd argue more important offer a great opportunity for the young woman who would join the program. 

 

 

Clickclack - Turns out that the answer to your question is way more interesting that I would have expected.   First off,  I have not  personally communicated with Mark Benson on the subject (or any other for that matter.)   But what I JUST had explained to me is that students and/or alumni communicated with Benson a few years ago right after he first started as the AD. It was described as a warm and cordial meeting but that he indicated the school wasn't in a budgetary position to add a sport. The thing that sticks with me as the following which is as close to an exact quote as one gets:  "I think it was made pretty clear to him since it was stated directly.  We literally said 'We want Crew to be a solution - not a problem. If the school adds a sport, we want Crew to be the obvious and logical choice." 

 

My contact (an alumnus) went on to say that the women's program was already competing alongside Division 1 schools when that had that meeting. And continues to be invited to DI invitationals. Even have to abide by the same compliance rules to have the opportunity. Got lots of other tidbits too. Turns out that their head coach is the real deal and recognized nationally.  Left coaching for a while while he was working for a Fortune 500. Started a family and found the coaching schedule more conducive.

 

I asked if they would be open to becoming a varsity sport.  Response: "Absolutely. Same as before. We want Crew to be a solution, not a problem."



#28 dslyank

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 03:55 PM

Slightly OT; but a fabulous read about crewing is : "the Boys in the Boat" by Daniel James Brown. In our case it would have to be "Women" in the boat. It is about the University of Washington's quest for a national championship and a 1936 Olympic gold metal against Hitler's "elite." I also think they have made a movie of the book, but I do not know a release date. There is a PBS special and if you watch or read the book, it would dispel the myth about crew not being a spectator sport. 10,000+ crowding the banks of the Hudson in Poughkeepsie for example.


Edited by dslyank, 19 September 2017 - 03:56 PM.


#29 kikuria

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 04:05 PM

Just admit fewer women.  Problem solved.

 

They already do this. Just compare the application rate to the admit rate. Women make up a significantly larger percentage of the applications. Women are admitted at a dis-proportionally lower rate.  I thought this was common knowledge but apparently not.  Now that I think about it, maybe someone should be looking whether this constitutes a violation too (only marginally sarcastic.)   It's buried somewhere in this I think: http://www.albany.edu/ir/whatdata.htm



#30 B9j2j6s

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 06:09 AM

Another easy (but more expensive way to do this) is elevating women's crew.  The expensive part is the shells which, from my understanding, can be upwards of 50-75k per boat.
Being a former rower and swim club founder, I would love to see both come back but rowing is really costly and isn't a spectator sport. Rowing would be a million to start up with boats, trailer, oars, rowing machines, weights, coach boats, also an issue of where to store the equipment which would be interesting and scholorships. Currently the UA rowing team is unaffiliated with the University so I doubt the new athletic team would get any of their equipment.
Swimming would be cheaper and there is already built in seating area in the PE building, although not cheep just add two lanes and diving boards and your set. Although a diving platform would increase insurance costs.

 
The key to being successful would be a willingness to work with the current team even if it's not affiliated with the University right now.  Also, Crew just isn't as costly as people make it out to be. Especially when comparing it to other sports. Let's help to stop furthering this myth!  As far as spectating goes - when was the last time you were at the Head of the Charles or the Grand Stands of a big regatta? Huge, huge spectating potential - an entire shoreline.  The  $$ come in from sponsorships rather than the gates sales of spectators.
Love your posts, very well written. Last time I was at the Head of the Charles was 2004. Which was my senior year, I was in the College Club Men Varsity 8 race. Yes it is a great spectator race in Boston but that isn't the normal situation. Most races that I have been to as a college and master rower are run by clubs that don't invest in grandstands along a river or lake to allow for great viewing of a race final 250 meters. Boston, Worcester and Philly are the exceptions. Regattas are money makers for clubs and the race organizers make a ton on boat entrance fees. To race in the Head of the Charles was around 200 back when I raced. Not sure what it is now.

Unfortunately according to my math to start a fully scholorshiped D1 program would cost around a million dollars.

The NCAA allows for a maximum of 20 full scholorships for women's rowing. Now this whole conversation got started because of title nine violations. So we are trying to get compliant so let's add the full amount.
So cost of a scholarship using out of state costs are $39,811×20= $778,220.

Average Cost for D1 rowing coach $50,000 not including benefits. Which is a bargin for the work he or she would have to do. $ 828,220. Most likely they would need an assistant coach for recruiting, driving the trailer to races and for extra safety during practice. But for this exercise will leave that out.

Boats Avg Cost for D1 competitive shells 30,000 including tax, so figure you need at least 4 8's just to start 2 Varsity HVW and LTW, 1 JV and 1 Novice. That is 120,000. You could throw in a few 4 and 2 boats but that could come later. 948,220

Oars 4 sets 6,000 (1500 per set) 954,220

Add in a cost of a used dependable Trailer 5,000 959,220, new trailer you could double that price. You also would need to either rent or buy a truck capable of hauling the trailer to races. But that is a cost that is to much of a variable so I will leave that out as well.

Rowing Machines 20 (1100 per erg) 22000 981,220

Coaches boats 2 (5000 per boat) 991,220

Additional Expenses that I am sure are high include insurance, transportation for practice and races, storage fees at either at Albany Rowing Club, Mohawk Rowing or where the current club team practices. Then you have race fees which can run between 100-300 per boat depending on the regatta.

Again it would be expensive to start the program. Now doubt all the scholorships would not be given out in year 1. However in four years after the program is full funded it would exceed over a million. Wish it was cheeper.
BTW the current club coach is a really great coach. Hope to make it up to Saratoga for the Head of the Fish this fall.

Edited by B9j2j6s, 20 September 2017 - 06:45 AM.





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